Legislature(2001 - 2002)
05/03/2002 01:10 PM House RES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
HOUSE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
May 3, 2002
1:10 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Beverly Masek, Co-Chair
Representative Drew Scalzi, Co-Chair
Representative Hugh Fate, Vice Chair
Representative Joe Green
Representative Lesil McGuire
Representative Gary Stevens
Representative Mary Kapsner
Representative Beth Kerttula
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Mike Chenault
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 529
"An Act exempting the use of munitions in certain areas from a
waste disposal permit requirement of the Department of
Environmental Conservation."
- MOVED CSHB 529(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE BILL NO. 527
"An Act relating to entry into the Minto Flats State Game Refuge
for purposes of exploration and development of oil and gas
resources."
- MOVED HB 527 OUT OF COMMITTEE
CONFIRMATION HEARINGS
Board of Game
J. Dana Pruhs - Anchorage
George Matz - Anchorage
Caleb Pungowiyi - Kotzebue
Bruce H. Baker - Auke Bay
Michelle R. Sparck - Bethel
- CONFIRMATIONS ADVANCED
SENATE BILL NO. 371
"An Act exempting the use of munitions in certain areas from a
waste disposal permit requirement of the Department of
Environmental Conservation; relating to general or nationwide
permits under the Alaska coastal management program and to
authorizations and permits issued by the Alaska Oil and Gas
Conservation Commission; and providing for an effective
date."
- SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 529
SHORT TITLE:PERMIT EXEMPTION FOR MUNITIONS USE
SPONSOR(S): STATE AFFAIRS
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
05/01/02 3260 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME -
REFERRALS
05/01/02 3260 (H) RES
05/03/02 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
BILL: HB 527
SHORT TITLE:MINTO FLATS GAME REFUGE
SPONSOR(S): RESOURCES
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
04/30/02 3238 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME -
REFERRALS
04/30/02 3238 (H) O&G, RES
05/02/02 (H) O&G AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
05/02/02 (H) Heard & Held -- Recessed to
5/3/02 8:00 am --
05/02/02 (H) MINUTE(O&G)
05/03/02 3347 (H) O&G RPT 4DP 1NR
05/03/02 3347 (H) DP: KOHRING, DYSON, CHENAULT,
FATE;
05/03/02 3347 (H) NR: GUESS
05/03/02 3347 (H) FN1: ZERO(DNR)
05/03/02 (H) O&G AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 124
05/03/02 (H) Moved Out of Committee
05/03/02 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 124
WITNESS REGISTER
RYNNIEVA MOSS, Staff
to Representative John Coghill
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 102
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented HB 529 of behalf of the House
State Affairs Standing Committee, sponsor, which Representative
Coghill chairs.
STEVE CLEARY, Development Director
Alaska Public Interest Research Group (AkPIRG);
Organizer, Citizens Opposed to Defense Experimentation (CODE)
P.O. Box 101093
Anchorage, Alaska 99510
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 529;
suggested no agency should be above the law, particularly one
responsible for six "Superfund" sites in Alaska that pose grave
public health and safety hazards to Alaska and the wildlife that
many people depend on.
TOM CHAPPLE, Director
Division of Air and Water Quality
Department of Environmental Conservation
555 Cordova Street
Anchorage, Alaska 99501
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 529; clarified that nothing
in this legislation is intended to or would change the
Department of Environmental Conservation's responsibilities
relative to addressing contamination.
PAMELA MILLER, Biologist and Director
Alaska Community Action on Toxics (ACAT)
135 Christensen Drive, Suite 100
Anchorage, Alaska 99501
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 529; noted
that this lawsuit is designed to prevent further harm to the
wildlife and human health in the Eagle River Flats, and to try
to get the U.S. Army to clean up a very serious problem of more
than 10,000 unexploded munitions that present a safety and
toxicological hazard.
LINDA FEILER
P.O. Box 148
Anchor Point, Alaska 99556-0148
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 529 and HB
527.
SUSAN SCHRADER
Alaska Conservation Voters (ACV)
P.O. Box 22151
Juneau, Alaska 99802
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 529;
expressed concern that without the oversight provided by a
permit system, the military's activities at artillery ranges
such as Eagle River Flats will continue to cause degradation of
water quality in wildlife habitat around the state.
BOB SHAVELSON, Executive Director
Cook Inlet Keeper
P.O. Box 1498
Homer, Alaska 99603
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 529 and HB
527; suggested the U.S. can defend national security and protect
the resources; suggested that [HB 527] is a bad precedent and
that there need to be areas that simply remain dedicated to the
purposes for which they were set aside.
JENNIFER YUHAS, Staff
to Representative Beverly Masek
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 128
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented HB 527 on behalf of the House
Resources Standing Committee, sponsor, which Representative
Masek co-chairs.
MARY JANE FATE
700 Gold Street
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 527; indicated
it would benefit the economy and employment in the area.
JIM DODSON, Executive Vice President
Andex Resources LLC
(No address provided)
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 527; suggested
the bill would clarify that the Nenana Basin is not "wholesale"
off-limits to natural gas exploration, and put the Nenana Basin
and the Minto Flats State Game Refuge in a similar position to
other state game refuges in the state.
MARK MYERS, Director
Division of Oil and Gas
Department of Natural Resources
550 West 7th Avenue, Suite 800
Anchorage Alaska, 99501
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions relating to HB 527.
CHIP DENNERLEIN, Director
Division of Habitat and Restoration
Alaska Department of Fish & Game
333 Raspberry Road
Anchorage, Alaska 99518-1579
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided testimony on HB 527; clarified the
department's initial position regarding the bill.
DAVID SHAW, Conservation Chair
Arctic Audubon Society
3124 Goldhill Road
Fairbanks, Alaska 99709
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 527;
suggested the bill undermines the Alaska Department of Fish and
Game's ability to limit exploration in the Minto Flats and also
puts critical bird habitat in the path of oil and gas
exploration.
ROGER SIGLIN
169 Frog Pond Circle
Fairbanks, Alaska 99712
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in opposition to HB 527;
suggested this [bill] should have been rejected once it was
known the refuge would be the center of development.
RUDY VETTER
P.O. Box 70342
Fairbanks, Alaska 99707
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 527.
J. DANA PRUHS, Appointee
to the Board of Game
2431 Wellington Court
Anchorage, Alaska 99517
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified as an appointee to the Board of
Game; provided background information and answered questions.
GEORGE MATZ, Appointee
to the Board of Game
14345 Cody Circle
Anchorage, Alaska 99516
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified as an appointee to the Board of
Game; provided background information and answered questions.
CALEB PUNGOWIYI, Appointee
to the Board of Game
P.O. Box 217
Kotzebue, Alaska 99752
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified as an appointee to the Board of
Game; provided background information and answered questions.
BRUCE H. BAKER, Appointee
to the Board of Game
P.O. Box 211384
Auke Bay, Alaska 99821
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified as an appointee to the Board of
Game; provided background information and answered questions.
MICHELLE R. SPARCK, Appointee
to the Board of Game
P.O. Box 267
Bethel, Alaska 99559
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified as an appointee to the Board of
Game; provided background information and answered questions.
ROSE ATUK-FOSDICK
P.O. Box 1485
Nome, Alaska 99762
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on the Board of Game
confirmations; urged the committee to confirm the appointment of
Mr. Pungowiyi and Ms. Sparck to the Board of Game.
LORETTA BULLARD, President
Kawerak Incorporated
P.O. Box 1969
Nome, Alaska 99762
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on the Board of Game
confirmations; urged the committee to confirm the appointment of
Mr. Pungowiyi and Ms. Sparck to the Board of Game.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 02-43, SIDE A
Number 0001
CO-CHAIR BEVERLY MASEK called the House Resources Standing
Committee meeting to order at 1:10 p.m. Representatives Masek,
Scalzi, Fate, Green, Stevens, and Kapsner were present at the
call to order. Representatives McGuire and Kerttula arrived as
the meeting was in progress.
HB 529-PERMIT EXEMPTION FOR MUNITIONS USE
[Contains discussion of SB 356, the companion bill]
CO-CHAIR MASEK announced that the first order of business would
be HOUSE BILL NO. 529, "An Act exempting the use of munitions in
certain areas from a waste disposal permit requirement of the
Department of Environmental Conservation."
Number 0189
REPRESENTATIVE FATE moved to adopt the proposed committee
substitute (CS), version 22-LS1752\C, Lauterbach, 5/3/02, as the
work draft. There being no objection, Version C was before the
committee.
Number 0218
RYNNIEVA MOSS, Staff to Representative John Coghill, Alaska
State Legislature, testified on behalf of the House State
Affairs Standing Committee, which Representative Coghill chairs.
Ms. Moss explained that on April 12, 2002, a group of people
filed a lawsuit against the U.S. Army, the U.S. Department of
Defense, and Donald Rumsfeld in his official capacity as U.S.
Secretary of Defense,. She explained that the [second count] of
the lawsuit states that the U.S. Army and the U.S. Department of
Defense have violated, and continue to violate, AS 46.03.100(a).
She maintained that this piece of legislation does not change
anything in statute, and she said DEC [the Department of
Environmental Conservation], in negotiations with the Army, has
confirmed that the department has never interpreted this law any
differently than the way the legislation asks it to be applied.
MS. MOSS said [AS 46.03.100] does not apply to firing or other
uses of munitions in training activities conducted on active
ranges, including active ranges operated by the U.S. Department
of Defense or U.S. military agencies. She mentioned that this
issue is currently being dealt with on the federal level by
Congress, and she said this legislation is needed because the
[second count] of this lawsuit is based on the premise that the
Army has violated this law, and that is not the case.
Number 0490
The committee took an at-ease from 1:15 p.m. to 1:17 p.m.
CO-CHAIR MASEK noted that public testimony was taken on this
issue during the House Resources Standing Committee's 04/26/02
meeting on SB 356 am.
Number 0538
REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS asked if all applicable military training
activities are included in this bill.
MS. MOSS replied, "Probably not." She said chemical warfare and
so forth are covered under other sections of AS 46.03; this bill
deals specifically with AS 46.03.100 because this is the section
that has been challenged by the court case.
Number 0613
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN indicated U.S. Coast Guard and Air Force
offshore activities do not need to be included in the bill.
Number 0633
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER mentioned the lawsuit, and she asked if
retroactive [language] needed to be included in the bill.
MS. MOSS said there is no need for retroactive language because
this bill would only affect future training.
Number 0689
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked if this bill would interfere with
DEC's ability to take care of contaminants found on the site.
MS. MOSS stated that AS 46.03 deals with contamination and
contamination cleanup, and this bill is specific to the statute
that is being challenged by the court case that says the Army is
required to obtain a permit prior to participating in training
activities involving the firing of munitions. She indicated the
bill doesn't address existing or future contamination.
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked if the bill only addresses
permitting.
MS. MOSS said yes; it is a permitting issue.
Number 0815
STEVE CLEARY, Development Director, Alaska Public Interest
Research Group (AkPIRG); Organizer, Citizens Opposed to Defense
Experimentation (CODE), testified. Mr. Cleary urged the
committee to oppose HB 529. He said no agency should be above
the law, particularly one responsible for six "Superfund"
[Comprehensive Environmental Response, Compensation, and
Liability Act (CERCLA)] sites in Alaska that pose grave public
health and safety hazards to Alaska and the wildlife that many
people depend on. He suggested that legislation should not be
used to [affect the outcome] of a lawsuit that is currently
before the courts, that people deserve a fair hearing in court,
and that legislation shouldn't be crafted specific to one
lawsuit.
MR. CLEARY said in regard to military practice, people get hurt
in practice and are being hurt now. He said thousands of
waterfowl have died at the Eagle River Flats, the same waterfowl
that hunters shoot and eat. He said it is unknown what damage
this might cause hunters through being poisoned by white
phosphorus, and this bill would allow that to continue in the
future. He said this is why it's bad legislation. Mr. Cleary
explained that when an entity applies to DEC for a disposal
permit, it is passed on to several other departments. He said
it is a smart policy that shows the broad effects that disposal
permits can have in protecting Alaskans, the state's fish and
game, natural resources, economic development, and health and
social services. He said every other agency, business, or
person must get a permit and so should the U.S. Department of
Defense and other military entities. An exemption, he said, is
not necessary for the protection of national security, but the
law is required for protection of the state and for local
security from the harm and health effects of these munitions and
other disposed-of products.
Number 1025
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN suggested that military activity has been
going on for 60 years [in this area], and he suggested that
enough time had passed to determine whether this activity was
going to harm waterfowl.
Number 1077
TOM CHAPPLE, Director, Division of Air and Water Quality,
Department of Environmental Conservation, testified. Mr.
Chapple noted that the department had submitted written
testimony that reiterated what he had said about this issue
during the House Resources Standing Committee's 04/26/02 meeting
on SB 356 am, and he would not repeat those comments. Mr.
Chapple, in response to a question presented by Representative
Kerttula, said if there were to be any pollution emanating from
the site now, the department would have the authority and would
work with the Army to try to correct it. He talked about the
issue that came up with the white phosphorus problem and how the
department worked with the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)
and the Army to develop a record of decision, which culminated
in the actions that would be taken to resolve the issue. He
clarified that nothing in this legislation is intended to or
would change DEC's responsibilities relative to addressing
contamination, whether it happened while the site was active or
after it closed.
Number 1203
PAMELA MILLER, Biologist and Director, Alaska Community Action
on Toxics (ACAT), testified. Ms. Miller noted that ACAT is a
co-plaintiff in the lawsuit in question. She said she felt it
was important to clarify some of the reasons that this
litigation was brought forth, and the fact that it was brought
forth as a last resort after the U.S. Army failed to address
ACAT's legitimate concerns. She said she has been a part of the
restoration advisory board for Fort Richardson for five years,
and she has brought this issue publicly and in formal comments
to Fort Richardson repeatedly, but has felt that her concerns
have not been addressed. She said this lawsuit is designed to
prevent further harm to the wildlife and human health in the
Eagle River Flats, and to try to get the U.S. Army to clean up a
very serious problem of more than 10,000 unexploded munitions
that present a safety hazard and a toxicological hazard. She
suggested that it has been proven repeatedly, on ranges
throughout this country, that these [materials] cause harm to
wildlife and human health, and she said the evidence of that
harm is presented in written testimony, which she had submitted.
MS. MILLER suggested that the U.S. Department of Defense should
be required to comply with the same set of state and federal
laws that any business, industry, or individual is required to
meet. She said in seeking the required permits, ACAT doesn't
think this is presenting any dangerous confrontation to national
security. Ms. Miller talked about the importance of the U.S.
Department of Defense in protecting the health and safety of the
people "at home," and the importance for the military to be able
to conduct training activities. She suggested it is not a
threat to national security to require the military to get the
permits that are being sought through this litigation. Ms.
Miller said it is an attempt to hold the defendants accountable
for the considerable harm they have created in a very important
salt marsh estuary on Cook Inlet.
Number 1483
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER said the Yukon-Kuskokwim Health
Corporation (YKHC) has been doing research on the blood
composition of Native people, especially women in the [Bethel]
region, where a large number of people use the land's resources
for food. She said the testimony that Ms. Miller provided is
pretty alarming, and that the YKHC study of that area indicated
that the lead count in pregnant women is "through the roof."
Representative Kapsner said this is creating some serious
concerns in the Bethel region, because according to new
evidence, the effects of a high lead count during pregnancy can
produce the same effect in children as Fetal Alcohol Syndrome
(FAS). She turned attention to the chemicals listed on page 2
of Ms. Miller's written testimony, and she asked if the effects
of those chemicals, particularly on children, have been
researched and documented. She said the lead found in Bethel's
pregnant women had been traced back to Mexican lead-shot, and
she suggested that migratory birds are bringing traces of lead
back to Alaska.
MS. MILLER said the thousands of waterfowl deaths were shown to
be a direct result of the white phosphorus contamination. She
said this contamination continues to be the cause of thousands
of waterfowl deaths per year, and she suggested that there
haven't been adequate studies done to address the full range of
environmental and health effects from other contaminants that
are known to be associated with munitions. She said it is known
that these types of contaminants have created very serious
ground and surface water contamination on other bases throughout
the country, which is why the lawsuit is seeking for the Army to
address the contamination from the white phosphorus, because it
is known the heavy metals contained in certain chemicals are
associated with the propellants and explosives used on the Eagle
River Flats.
Number 1617
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked what white phosphorus does to
humans.
MR. CHAPPLE noted he is not fully capable of answering the
question. He said there is an immediate reaction with waterfowl
because phosphorus oxidizes rapidly when exposed to air; the
phosphorus is buried in the soil during the explosions and then
released into the soil or the water when a duck submerges its
head to feed. He said current practices on the range are that
no ordnances is exploded or trials are done during the summer
season when birds are around. All activity is limited to the
winter season when the flats are frozen, he said, which
eliminates a lot of that sequence of events for burying the
white phosphorus into the soil or water.
Number 1710
LINDA FEILER testified. She said as a citizen of this country,
she finds it a crime that she must speak against the military,
and that if she believed the state laws were stupid, she
wouldn't be here. She suggested it is unfair for anyone to be
exempt from the laws that have been so carefully put into place
for the health and welfare of the country. Ms. Feiler said she
feels very strongly that [Alaska's] wetlands and water purity
are paramount to the health of the state's people and its
fisheries. She said it is her hope that the military is not
here to harm [the land] but rather to defend [it]. She said she
was in agreement with Ms. Miller's testimony, and she urged the
committee not to support HB 529.
Number 1785
SUSAN SCHRADER, Alaska Conservation Voters (ACV), testified.
Ms. Schrader said ACV is concerned that without the oversight
that is provided by a permit system, the military's activities
at artillery ranges such as Eagle River Flats will continue to
cause the degradation of water quality in wildlife habitats
throughout the state. She suggested that 130 Department of
Defense Superfund waste sites exist throughout the country, and
6 of those sites are located in Alaska. Ms. Schrader said she
thinks it speaks quite clearly to the fact that the federal
government realizes, and has acknowledged, that these sites are
heavily contaminated. She noted that Fort Richardson is a
Superfund site, and while recognizing the need for a well-
trained military, she said efforts to protect national security
should also [include] protecting the nation's environment and
public health.
MS. SCHRADER suggested that no agency should be above the law
and granted the freedom to pollute. She said in her mind, the
concept of homeland security should encompass the right to be
secure in the knowledge that the air and water are free of
toxins. She said her understanding is that because of
inadequate staffing, financial resources, and the need to
prioritize, [DEC] does not require permits for civilian or
military rifle ranges. Ms. Schrader said regardless of the
resources that preclude them from instituting a permit program
for these activities, the fact remains that rifle ranges and
artillery ranges are very likely sources of significant
contamination, which can be seen at the Eagle River Flats and at
a small rifle range in Juneau. She suggested that in order to
comply with its mission to protect Alaskans' health, DEC should
be given the funding that's necessary to carry out an efficient
permit program to provide oversight for these activities.
Simply because DEC doesn't have enough money or enough staff, it
does not mean that the pollution is not there, she stated.
MS. SCHRADER suggested that all Alaskans should be concerned
that the white phosphorus contamination at the flats was
detected by the Army, and not by the state agency that is
mandated to protect Alaska's environmental health, and she
thought it should be something of quite embarrassment. She said
without a permitting program, there is no way for DEC to have
the ability to do the type of oversight, monitoring, or
verification that is needed to protect the state's water and air
quality. Ms. Schrader said for that reason, she thought the
committee should oppose the bill.
Number 1975
BOB SHAVELSON, Executive Director, Cook Inlet Keeper, reported
that Cook Inlet Keeper is currently a co-plaintiff in the
litigation, [and is] trying to bring some accountability to the
bombing range in Eagle River Flats. He said it is this
litigation that's largely propelled the military to come before
the legislature at this time. He said he thought it was
important to recognize that the U.S. Supreme Court, in a ruling,
said rightly that no man is above the law. Mr. Shavelson
suggested this is because the U.S. is a nation of people from
whom all the powers of corporations, government, and the
military flow; that's the very essence of the constitutional
democracy, and wars are fought to protect it. He suggested it
is important to recognize that in a democracy, information is
the currency, and when something that sounds simplistic like a
permitting scheme is stripped away, information is removed from
citizens, legislators, and agencies, who are therefore unable to
make good decisions. That is a mistake, he suggested.
MR. SHAVELSON said Alaska is littered with contaminated military
sites, and the devastation brought to the environment and to
workers can be seen out at Amchitka. He said he clearly
recognizes the need for a strong national security, but he
thought that because the U.S. is the richest, most powerful
nation on the planet, without a peer, it can defend national
security and protect the resources that support the economy,
people, and way of life. Mr. Shavelson said it doesn't have to
be an either/or [situation], and that he resents the fact that
"we're always cast into this dichotomy where we have to choose
one or the other." He suggested that the U.S. has the
technology, money, and sophistication to do it right. He said
in looking at an aerial photo of the Eagle River Flats, he was
reminded of the network of veins and arteries in the human body.
He said he thought that analogy is appropriate because the Eagle
River Flats is the "lifeblood" of the fisheries in Cook Inlet.
MR. SHAVELSON said the complex ecological exchanges that occur -
the need for nutrition and habitat - are the very system that
sustains the fisheries in Cook Inlet and supports the
commercial, recreational, and subsistence users throughout the
many communities in Cook Inlet. He said he hoped committee
members with a concern for Cook Inlet fisheries, the
communities, and the people it supports, would recognize that
this [bill] is a step in the wrong direction. Mr. Shavelson
suggested that the military has a budget that surpasses the
gross domestic product (GDP) of all the Russian states combined,
and it recently asked for an increase in its budget that is more
than the military budgets of all other militarized nations
combined. He remarked, "We're not talking about an inability to
do this for some type of financial constraint; it's a policy
issue."
Number 2177
CO-CHAIR MASEK temporarily suspended the hearing on HB 529 to
address other items of business.
HB 527-MINTO FLATS GAME REFUGE
CO-CHAIR MASEK announced that the next order of business would
be HOUSE BILL NO. 527, "An Act relating to entry into the Minto
Flats State Game Refuge for purposes of exploration and
development of oil and gas resources."
Number 2224
JENNIFER YUHAS, Staff to Representative Beverly Masek, Alaska
State Legislature, presented HB 527 on behalf of the House
Resources Standing Committee, sponsor, which Representative
Masek co-chairs. Ms. Yuhas said in discussions with the
Interior delegation, there were requests that something be
produced to better facilitate economic development in the state
by allowing for responsible exploration and development of oil
and gas resources within the Minto Flats State Game Refuge.
Number 2257
REPRESENTATIVE FATE said the bill was heard earlier in the day
by the House Special Committee on Oil and Gas, and he mentioned
several questions asked at that meeting. He said a proposed
Nenana Basin oil and gas preliminary report indicated no
possibility whatsoever for either exploration or development [in
the Minto Flats Game Refuge]; a subsequent letter went to a
private individual, which basically stated the same thing. He
said this project involved a company named Andex Resources LLC;
in consortium with Doyon, Limited, it is prepared to do the
exploration and seismic work required to determine whether there
is gas in commercial quantities. He mentioned that [the
project] was at risk, and could've been a "huge wound" to the
economy in Alaska, the Yukon drainage, and the vicinity around
Fairbanks. Representative Fate explained that [at that point]
the Interior delegation became active in the pursuit of this
[project]. He said in discussions, Commissioner Frank Rue of
the Alaska Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G) had [guaranteed]
that he would try to mitigate the problems and [clarify] the
letters that ADF&G had sent to the Department of Natural
Resources (DNR). He mentioned that the letter still left some
small doubt about the confusion [surrounding the project].
REPRESENTATIVE FATE said it was felt that a bill such as this
would suffice to at least give the indication that exploration
and development of the Nenana Basin would go forth, but with the
same parameters and guidelines [set forth] to mitigate any
problems that might come up relative to the environment. He
said there was a good public process, and the people of Minto
expressed several concerns regarding trapping and Native
allotments, but they also said if those issues could be met
successfully, they wanted the gas and were for the project. He
said if this is done in a good and sound environmental manner,
there's no reason for the project to be impeded.
REPRESENTATIVE FATE noted the possibility of a conflict [because
Mary Jane Fate is his spouse].
Number 2610
MARY JANE FATE testified. She said she was born and raised in
Rampart, which is located on the Yukon River very close to Minto
and the Elliott Highway. She said she is in favor of this bill
as past CEO [chief executive officer], president, and chairman
of the board of directors of Baan o yeel kon [Rampart Village
Corporation], an ANCSA [Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act]
village corporation; and as a current member on the board of
directors; and as chairman of the investment committee. She
said due to the location, and because of uses of the river in
the summer and [possible] ice transportation for highways [in
winter, there could be a 12-month involvement with transporting
any affordable energy within the Yukon Basin. She noted that
the school and the store had closed, and she said the economy is
down, and that the area is not marketable because there is not
access by land. Ms. Fate remarked, "We've plotted our R.S.
2477s and we've also gone on record, and the congressional
delegations in Washington, D.C., have received money and [the]
okay for our highway to connect the Yukon River Highway with the
Elliott Highway."
MS. FATE said this is why she is speaking for the bill. She
said efforts are aggressively proactive in reviving the village
of Rampart, and that other interests include affordable energy.
She noted that there are many concerns about energy, which she
indicated is not affordable. Ms. Fate urged the committee to
[pass the bill], which she indicated would benefit the economy
and employment in that area.
CO-CHAIR MASEK noted that there are many areas of the state in
similar situations, and she suggested that bills such as this
will help economic development [in those areas].
MS. FATE suggested the road is going to happen, and that the
money has "come across the board" thanks to U.S. Senator Ted
Stevens.
Number 2818
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked how high the level of activity is
for hunting and fishing within the refuge itself.
MS. FATE said she was raised on a trap line, and the village of
Rampart was used as a source of supplies and education. She
noted her involvement in activities such as hunting, fishing,
trapping, logging, and berry picking. She indicated residents
would gain from the exploration and development of the land, if
accessed, and she said several subsidiaries have been set aside
and would like to joint venture. She remarked, "Of course,
we'll take care of our land; of course, we'll take care of the
animals; I don't recall my father, who trapped, ... ever
overtrapping, or abusing or misusing the use and occupancy of
any of our lands, or other lands." Ms. Fate said there is no
federal land in the area that she is speaking of; it is owned by
the state, Baan o yeel kon, and Doyon, Limited.
Number 2923
JIM DODSON, Executive Vice President, Andex Resources LLC
("Andex"), testified. Mr. Dodson said Andex had applied for an
exploration license to explore for natural gas in the Nenana
Basin, which is a natural-gas-prone basin. He said although the
bill did not originate at Andex's urging, the company is in
support. He said the hope is that the bill clarifies that the
Nenana Basin is not "wholesale" off-limits to natural gas
exploration, and that it puts the Nenana Basin and the Minto
Flats State Game Refuge in positions similar to other state game
refuges. Mr. Dodson said ADF&G feels its position regarding the
Nenana Basin, particularly the Minto Flats State Game Refuge,
may have been mischaracterized in a preliminary best-interest
finding. This legislation would further clarify what
development may occur, subject to the proper permitting, within
the Minto Flats State Game Refuge, he said.
TAPE 02-43, SIDE B
Number 2995
MARK MYERS, Director, Division of Oil and Gas, Department of
Natural Resources, testified. In response to a question by
Representative Kerttula about oil and gas exploration in other
refuges, Mr. Myers affirmed that [legislation relating to] the
Susitna Flats [and Goose Bay State] Game Refuge and the Trading
Bay State Game Refuge specifically have language similar to that
proposed in this bill, and that there are other state game
refuges that are basically mute to the point. He said this
[legislation] would be consistent with [legislation relating to]
the Susitna Flats [and Goose Bay State] Game Refuge and the
Trading Bay State Game Refuge.
Number 2987
CHIP DENNERLEIN, Director, Division of Habitat and Restoration,
Alaska Department of Fish & Game, said he is familiar with both
the concentration and commodity of resources; that he had
formerly done work with [Cook Inlet Region, Incorporated]; and
that he helped develop a natural-gas well in the Kenai National
Wildlife Refuge. He explained that the department's concerns
are that the Minto Flats State Game Refuge is a particularly
important wildlife area that predates the refuge and was
recognized as the most important fish and wildlife area in all
of the Tanana Basin plan, not only for its production and
sensitivity, but because of high public use.
MR. DENNERLEIN said that area has the highest harvest of
waterfowl in Alaska for subsistence or sport [hunting], and is a
very obvious complex of lakes, ponds, and wetlands, which is why
it's such a "hotspot." The development of subsurface oil and
gas resources is allowed in the game refuge, so long as it's
compatible with the fundamental, basic protection of those fish
and wildlife resources. He said ADF&G's plan does say this in
the regulations, and this bill has been correctly cast as
mirroring that. Mr. Dennerlein said the issue in that area is
going to be access in the northern area, and that some of the
language that came out in the discussion during this process did
create the impression that everything north of the river was a
"blanket off the table."
MR. DENNERLEIN noted that the department had tried to clarify
that, and he talked about types of access. He said the first
access is for exploration, and the department doesn't foresee
any problem with that. He said if oil and gas is found, it is
important that there is access for drilling and development
pads. He said also very important, in this case, is production
- if something is found and produced, can it be [transported out
of the area]. So, it's a pipeline issue, he said, and the
licensee/operator would want to know that if sufficient
quantities of the resource are found, they could get it to
market.
MR. DENNERLEIN talked about the department's initial comments on
the issue, and he said it was expressed that the department
wished that there not be development north of the river, which
is a very important "public use and sensitive [area]." He said
what the department meant to say was that if some of these areas
are going to be [included] in the license, the department didn't
really mean it as a blanket prohibition; rather, it meant that
these [areas] would require some special mitigation. He said
there would be some areas which the department would not want
surface occupancy. Mr. Dennerlein said the department believes
it can work on the ground site by site within this language to
meet the dual purposes of the refuge, protect the fish and
wildlife, and allow the viable development of this prospect.
Number 2810
DAVID SHAW, Conservation Chair, Arctic Audubon Society,
explained that the Arctic Audubon Society is committed to the
conservation of birds and bird habitats in Interior Alaska. He
suggested HB 527 undermines ADF&G's ability to limit exploration
in the Minto Flats, and also puts critical bird habitat in the
path of oil and gas exploration. He said the Arctic Audubon
Society is opposed to this bill because, according to ADF&G, the
Minto Flats is one of the highest quality breeding and staging
areas for waterfowl in Alaska, and possibly in all of North
America. He said Trumpeter swans, which are a prevalent breeder
in this region, are believed to be negatively affected by noise
and human activity; they are often present in this area until
November and arrive early in the spring.
MR. SHAW said ADF&G should have authority to designate a "core"
area or areas, off-limits to exploration. He suggested that
this bill seeks to undermine that authority by creating a new
subsection that requires entry into the refuge for exploration
and development. The Minto Flats State Game refuge is an
important Interior Alaska waterfowl and moose harvest area, he
said, that is used frequently by waterfowl hunters, and is also
an important area for subsistence and sport moose hunting. Mr.
Shaw suggested that winter exploration will result in a loss of
critical moose habitat. He said the Arctic Audubon Society
supports the use of cleaner fuel as an alternative to oil and
coal, but does not believe that the critical habitat in the
Nenana Basin should be sacrificed, or that this area, designated
as a refuge, should be opened to exploration and development,
particularly when it is highly likely that in the near future a
gas pipeline will pass through Interior Alaskan communities,
tapping into the much richer gas deposits on the North Slope.
CO-CHAIR MASEK suggested that 60 percent of Alaska's land is
"locked up" in refuges or national parks, and said she thought
this bill would not affect a lot of those areas that Mr. Shaw
had talked about.
REPRESENTATIVE FATE asked Mr. Shaw if he thought that the other
three game refuges where oil and gas exploration had been done
had sacrificed the fish and game.
MR. SHAW clarified that he is trying to imply that danger goes
along with any development in these delicate habitats,
particularly in the Minto Flats. As a result, much of Alaska is
off-limits. However, he suggested few of those areas have the
[same] value for wildlife habitat that the Minto Flats has. In
response to a comment by Representative Fate, he said it is the
risk of sacrifice; the impact of development or what will be
found is not known, and what exactly could happen in this area
is not understood. Mr. Shaw said it is dangerous to go in with
the attitude that it can be done right "when we simply do not
know."
Number 2602
ROGER SIGLIN testified, suggesting this proposal should have
been rejected once it was known the refuge would be the center
of development. He asked what this bill would change or
accomplish, since existing legislation has already been
interpreted to allow oil and gas development, if compatible with
refuge purposes. He asked if it is Representative Fate's intent
to ensure that concerns that ADF&G, regarding habitat and
wildlife populations, not be allowed to preclude development in
any part of the refuge where Andex and Doyon, Limited, desire to
do so. He said in listening to Mr. Dennerlein's comments and in
reading written comments by Commissioner Rue, he thought that
objective had already been accomplished.
Number 2528
LINDA FEILER testified, saying she finds it outrageous that the
government agrees to set aside areas for protection, and then
wants to ask the question again of whether "we" want to pollute
it or destroy it. She noted that she has been a resident of
Alaska for 25 years, and she suggested that the state spends a
large amount of time setting aside refuges. She said according
to "the dictionary's definition of refuge," that is not what is
being done here.
MS. FEILER said if these areas are going to be [contaminated] by
waste and polluted, why are they being set aside for refuges.
She said she knew from her experience, in living on the Kenai
Peninsula and in the Anchor Point area, what oil and gas can do
to a community. Ms. Feiler suggested there had been pollution
in that area from oil for quite a long time. She said if an
area that has been set aside as a refuge is going to be opened
up [for exploration], "then you're asking us to go through the
same thing that we went through" in the Anchor Point area. She
asked, "Why do we set aside an area, call it a refuge, and then
ask us to come back and then know whether we want to go in there
and use it as anything but a refuge?"
Number 2437
REPRESENTATIVE FATE said when refuges are formed, sometimes a
critical analysis of the mineral substance deposits is not done
or it is done and it shows that the [deposits] are
noncommercial. He suggested that most of the refuges were not
[intended] to deter the development of the subsurface; [the
intention], mostly, is to protect the habitat and encourage the
lifestyle of the people who use the land. Representative Fate
said when these refuges were developed, there was no effort to
try to forestall any subsurface development, as long as that
development really didn't harm the environment.
REPRESENTATIVE FATE, in response to a question from Mr. Siglin,
turned attention to a statement from a preliminary finding by
the director of DNR, which he read in part:
Licensees are advised that the Alaska Department of
Natural Resources and the Alaska Department of Fish
and Game have joint management authority of the Minto
Flats Game Reserve. [The] Alaska Department of Fish
and Game has advised the Alaska Department of Natural
Resources that they will not approve any facilities,
pads, pipelines, or roads within the 277,760-acre core
area of the Minto Flats game refuge located north of
the Tanana River.
REPRESENTATIVE FATE said this was construed to negate any
possibility in the core area, where the gas is presumed to lie,
and forestalled any possibility of either exploration or
development. He said a subsequent letter went to an individual
in Fairbanks stating basically the same thing. He said it was
at this point that the Interior delegation came into play
because of its worries about the development of gas in the
Interior of Alaska and the possibility of lowering energy costs
to the entire area. He said these letters seemed to indicate
there would be no ability for gas exploration or development in
the [Minto Flats State] Game Refuge.
REPRESENTATIVE FATE said it wasn't a matter of whether there was
a duplicate statute; it was a matter of clarification of the
statutes, and of these communications by ADF&G. He said this
bill clarifies it, so there is no doubt; it doesn't mitigate any
requirement to explore or develop outside the parameters of good
environmental safety, which is set by all agencies that are
concerned with the preservation of the environment.
Number 2173
MR. SIGLIN asked Representative Fate if he was saying that oil
and gas development should proceed, even if the experts in ADF&G
determine that it would have adverse impacts on fish and game
that could not be alleviated or mitigated.
REPRESENTATIVE FATE, in response, said the law doesn't say that,
nor does this [bill] say that. He suggested that it was brought
out during a previous House Special Committee on Oil and Gas
meeting that there may be areas of complete sensitivity that
[exploration] may have to go around. He said there's no effort
with this bill or any other piece of legislation to try to
circumvent those environmental safeguards.
Number 2103
RUDY VETTER testified. Mr. Vetter said he is favor of HB 527.
He talked about flat drilling and other [drilling] methods, and
he said it his belief that this [project] can be developed. Mr.
Vetter said if there is gas, then there's a possibility that
there is a gas field there. He talked about the gas pipeline
from the North Slope and the possibility of a gas pipeline in
the foreseeable future. He said he's worked on the North Slope
and watched the development of gas and oil. Mr. Vetter
remarked, "Right now, and for the foreseeable future, that's not
a gas pipeline; that's a pipe dream, because of the present
price of gas ...." He suggested the price of gas could be
lowered considerably, and that there would be sufficient
development in the Lower 48 to make it uneconomical.
Number 2011
BOB SHAVELSON, Executive Director, Cook Inlet Keeper, testified.
Mr. Shavelson suggested that this [bill] is [setting] a bad
precedent, and that there need to be areas that simply remain
dedicated to the purposes for which they were set aside. He
talked about flying over and touring through the Kenai National
Wildlife Refuge, and he said the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
has previously found that oil and gas development in that refuge
is incompatible with the purposes for which the refuge was
established. He said evidence of that can be found in the
report A Contaminants Assessment for the Kenai National Wildlife
Refuge, which was done by a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
biologist in 2001. Mr. Shavelson said the report provides
historical documentation on a vast number of spills, leaks,
explosions, other pollution events, total coverage of roads,
pads, pipelines, noise, air pollution, and so forth.
MR. SHAVELSON said [the report indicates that it isn't possible]
to simultaneously have an area dedicated as important habitat
and have heavy industrialized oil and gas development
concurrently there. He said he's also had the opportunity to
fly over and tour the Susitna [Flats and Goose Bay State Game]
Refuge and the Trading Bay State Game Refuge. Mr. Shavelson
said while it is not developed to the same extent as the Kenai
National Wildlife Refuge, the same issues of habitat
fragmentation, because of the breaking up of wetlands can be
seen. He said these are only small impacts relative to a large
area, but, in fact if fish and wildlife are to be protected, it
is his belief that the lines need to be kept defined, and not
mixed together.
Number 1862
CO-CHAIR MASEK, upon determining no one else wished to testify,
closed public testimony.
Number 1841
CO-CHAIR MASEK temporarily suspended the hearing on HB 527 to
address other items of business.
CONFIRMATION HEARINGS
Board of Game
CO-CHAIR MASEK announced the next order of business would be the
confirmation hearings on the appointments of J. Dana Pruhs,
George Matz, Caleb Pungowiyi, Bruce H. Baker, and Michelle R.
Sparck to the Board of Game.
Number 1804
J. DANA PRUHS, Appointee to the Board of Game, testified. He
explained that he is a lifelong Alaskan who was born and raised
in Fairbanks. He said he is a businessman who works in the
construction business throughout Alaska, and is also the owner
of a commercial aggregate business in Wasilla and an air service
in Homer. Mr. Pruhs explained that he is a lifelong hunter who
loves to fish and that he is a consumptive user.
Number 1753
CO-CHAIR MASEK asked him for his thoughts on both subsistence
and a constitutional amendment.
MR. PRUHS indicated that it would depend on the constitutional
amendment, and he would have to look at the details. He said he
is pretty much in favor of equal access, but he is also
passionately for [giving subsistence to] the people who need it.
Mr. Pruhs said he would tend to let the elected officials handle
that issue and come up with the best decision possible for
citizens to make a decision.
CO-CHAIR MASEK mentioned a bill that was passed previously by
the legislature that deals with intensive management, and a
proposal passed by the Board of Game to initiate that bill. She
said the administration had not done anything with the issue of
intensive management, and she asked Mr. Pruhs for his thoughts
on the issue.
MR. PRUHS said he thought intensive management is a valuable
tool when used in the appropriate areas. However, he said, the
board can only authorize the department to do certain things,
and does not have fiscal or oversight responsibility. Mr. Pruhs
remarked, "All we can do is authorize the ... department to do
what we think is right, based on the input and the results we
get from local people."
Number 1576
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN talked about predator control and some of
the methods used such as removal, killing, and neutering. He
asked Mr. Pruhs how he felt about predator control, and if he
had a preference on the method used.
MR. PRUHS said he did not object to predator control and that he
believed the least expensive method, if the state were to
participate, would be to let it be handled locally. He said it
would depend on the circumstances, but if [the state] does enter
into predator control, the most efficient way would be the best.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Pruhs if he wouldn't object to
using the most efficient method out of those mentioned
previously.
MR. PRUHS, in response, said correct.
Number 1509
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked Mr. Pruhs why he wanted to be on
the board.
MR. PRUHS said as a user of the resource, and because of his
love for the state, that he wants to contribute. He said he has
hunted and fished all of his life, and he believes it is an
important resource to the state. Mr. Pruhs explained that he is
at a point in his career where he can afford to take the time to
[be on the board], and that he thought citizens of the state
should do that.
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked Mr. Pruhs about his background and
whether he had experience working with biologists or game
managers.
MR. PRUHS, in response, said he hasn't [worked with biologists
or game managers] and that when he worked for the Alaska
Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G), he looked for areas to
hunt, and talked to biologists about where "success rates" are
and what the habitat is like, for him and his family.
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked Mr. Pruhs if he hunts with dogs.
MR. PRUHS said he loves Labradors retrievers and that working
with them is a passion of his. In his view, [hunting with dogs]
is the best way to conserve birds because of the success in
getting the bird back; he said it limits the number of takes.
Number 1400
REPRESENTATIVE FATE noted the possibility of a conflict because
he has known Mr. Pruhs family very well for many years.
Number 1310
GEORGE MATZ, Appointee to the Board of Game, testified. Mr.
Matz characterized himself as a 26-year resident of Alaska. He
talked about his experiences living in Fairbanks, Juneau, and
Anchorage. He said he has traveled throughout the state, which
includes [visiting] more than 70 villages, and that he is
familiar with the diversity and natural history of the state.
He said he has worked in the private, public, and nonprofit
sectors, and he referred to his resume for additional
information. Mr. Matz said since being appointed to the Board
of Game last May, he has attended four Board of Game meetings
and he has participated in two advisory committees. He talked
about his experience chairing a committee, and he said despite
the diverse makeup of the committee, it was able to reach a full
consensus on all recommendations. Mr. Matz explained that he is
currently participating in a joint-board task force that is
seeking to improve the understanding between the board and the
advisory committees throughout the state. He said he believes
one of the main purposes of the board is to provide a hunting
opportunity that is sustainable and fair. In terms of reaching
decisions that are fair, he said, he supported the use of
collaborative processes.
MR. MATZ said he is very interested in all aspects of wildlife,
including hunting, wildlife observation, or just reading about
wildlife. He explained that he and his wife believe in living
close to the land and are avid consumptive users, which includes
hunting, fishing, clam digging, and berry picking. Mr. Matz
said he respects the hunting tradition and recognizes its
importance to many of Alaska's families. He said he would
appreciate the committee's consideration of his confirmation to
the Board of Game.
Number 1190
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN noted that Mr. Matz resume reflected that
he had spent a significant amount of time on environmental
pursuits. He asked Mr. Matz how he viewed the order of
preference for game.
MR. MATZ said he didn't see hunting and wildlife observation as
being incompatible, so it's not one over the other.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Matz how he felt about predator
control.
MR. MATZ said he thought it is a necessary tool in the "toolbox"
of wildlife management, and that there are certainly times when
it fits in.
CO-CHAIR MASEK said a couple of years ago the administration
suggested closing down portions of Game Management Unit (GMU) 14
by the Nelchina [caribou] herd and Glennallen, in the area where
people have used four-wheelers to access game. She said there
was an issue about the impact to the environment, and she asked
Mr. Matz for his opinion on the issue and how he felt about
motorized access with regard to hunting.
MR. MATZ said if there is no proof that there is any impact or
any problem between user groups, he would say not to bother with
it and that it wouldn't be a problem that needs to be addressed.
CO-CHAIR MASEK suggested that last year the Board of Game took
up a proposal that dealt with the Kenai area in regard to the
stream there. She asked Mr. Matz about his opinion on that
proposal.
MR. MATZ noted that Co-Chair Masek had testified at that
meeting. He explained that there was some discussion on that
proposal and it was approved by the board 7-0. He said it was
felt that it wasn't a regulatory matter; rather, it was just
reaffirming a policy that already existed, which was the
consensus of the board at the time.
Number 0963
CO-CHAIR MASEK asked Mr. Matz for his opinion on the Tier II
[subsistence] permit.
MR. MATZ said no one is satisfied with the Tier II situation; it
has problems. He said he thought the Board of Game, at the
January statewide meeting, made some definite improvements in
making it work better. Mr. Matz explained that the board raised
the cap, which was initially at 30 years, and had created some
problems for people that have long-term residency as hunters in
Alaska. He said essentially, those people qualified for Tier II
permits, which the Board of Game thought was a problem, and so
the cap was raised to 50 years, with the hope that those people
will be able to qualify in the next round of Tier II permits.
He said he is concerned with verification and with charges that
people have misleading information on their permits. Mr. Matz
said he thought it was an unfortunate issue and that the
question had been raised with ADF&G. He explained that he
thought the Board of Game did the best it could, given the
latitude it has.
CO-CHAIR MASEK asked Mr. Matz his position on the state
constitution regarding equal access to the resource and a
constitutional amendment for subsistence.
MR. MATZ said it would depend on the amendment; it would be hard
to give his thoughts unless he knew what was put forth in the
amendment.
Number 0680
CALEB PUNGOWIYI, Appointee to the Board of Game, testified. Mr.
Pungowiyi characterized himself as a 60-year-old lifelong
Alaskan, born and raised on St. Lawrence Island. He talked
about his past work experience and his current occupation as
president of the Robert [Aqqaluk] Newlin, Sr. Memorial Trust, a
nonprofit foundation established by NANA Regional Corporation.
He said he just got his permanent hunting, fishing, and trapping
license, which he is very proud of. Mr. Pungowiyi explained
that he is a recreational trapper, primarily trapping beaver,
land otter, and muskrat for home use for his wife to sew things
for their grandkids. He noted that he has pretty much traveled
all over Alaska in his involvement with his work and for other
boards and commissions that he's served on. Mr. Pungowiyi said
he was recently on a scientific advisory committee for the
Marine Mammal Commission as a Native advisor, and he is
currently on the advisory panel for the Alaska State Council of
the Arts.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Pungowiyi why there is such a
rapid turnover in his employment record.
MR. PUNGOWIYI explained that he retired from Kawerak in 1989 and
moved to Kotzebue, where he worked as city manager. Soon after,
he said, he was hired as president for Inuit Circumpolar
Conference and he moved to Anchorage for three years. He then
moved back to Kotzebue and was hired as the director of the
Natural Resource Program, he said, which he committed to for
four years. Finally, he said, he moved back to Kotzebue, where
he is currently working for the trust.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Pungowiyi if he considered
himself to be a good group worker. He questioned whether the
reason that Mr. Pungowiyi had such short tenures was due to
upward mobility.
MR. PUNGOWIYI said a lot of it was employment-and family-driven.
He said he is a team worker who works well with other people,
and in working in natural resources, he's had to deal with some
tough issues and encourage the inclusion of input from other
users, so the spectrum of people involved included everybody,
and whatever regulation or policy might be adopted would include
all of those that might be affected. He said this is so those
people have some role in the policy that is going to be decided.
He said he feels it is his role to ensure that all people's
input is heard regarding policies that might affect them.
CO-CHAIR MASEK asked Mr. Pungowiyi his view on ANILCA [Alaska
National Interest Lands Conservation Act] versus the state
constitution on equal access to the resource.
MR. PUNGOWIYI talked about Congress trying to address the
subsistence issues of Alaska Natives and those who live in rural
areas. He said it's the law of the land and is something that
the federal government, and those that are affected by it, have
to abide by. He talked about the state constitution's allowing
all Alaska residents to have equal access to the resource; he
said as a member of the board, he is bound by the state
constitution to allow for equal access and he followed that in
his decision-making process in Fairbanks. He remarked, "I think
we have to realize that whether we disagree or agree on certain
things, ... if the law applies, you have to apply the law."
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked Mr. Pungowiyi why he is motivated
to fill this position.
Number 0050
MR. PUNGOWIYI said it is his desire to be a public servant and
to represent views that otherwise might not be heard. He talked
about the Board of Game's affecting a lot of people.
TAPE 02-44, SIDE A
Number 0001
MR. PUNGOWIYI said it's a commitment and a sacrifice because it
requires him to be away from his family for a long period of
time, but it is also a public service, and he feels that he
would be a good public servant to the State of Alaska.
Number 0099
BRUCE H. BAKER, Appointee to the Board of Game, testified. Mr.
Baker said he has been an Alaska resident for over 30 years, and
has dedicated most of his professional career to help manage
habitats that are essential for sustaining the game populations
that the Board of Game is responsible for ensuring the
continuation of. He explained that he retired from ADF&G 10
years ago, and is now self-employed as a natural resource
consultant on issues that don't come before the Board of Game.
He said he [worked for] ADF&G for 11 years, and before that he
served as a natural resource policy specialist in the Office of
the Governor under former Governor Jay Hammond. Mr. Baker said
he's worked with a variety of user groups to try to find
solutions to natural resource management problems of a wide
variety, and that he's performed biological field work in
Southeast, Southcentral, and Interior Alaska and has had the
opportunity to travel fairly extensively throughout other
portions of the state. He said he is an active hunter and he
recognizes trapping as a legitimate use of game.
MR. BAKER said he is at a point in his career where he has the
time to dedicate to game board responsibilities, and to help
local ADF&G advisory committees and the general public to
participate in the board's decision making process. He said he
feels that the board has a public trust responsibility that he
takes very seriously, and he tries to listen to everyone and
ensure that his votes on proposed regulatory changes are
informed, fair, and consistent with the laws that the
legislature passes.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Baker if he is a hunter or a
fisherman.
MR. BAKER, in response, said he is both. He explained that he
bought his first Alaska hunting license in 1965, and has had
hunting and fishing licenses frequently since, including for the
last 12 consecutive years.
Number 0329
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Baker how he felt about predator
control.
MR. BAKER said he thought the overriding consideration is for
game populations and their habitats to be managed so they are
vigorous enough to be around 20 years from now, for people to
have these same discussions about. He said he has spent a lot
of years working in government, and one of the advantages is
that he has become very accustomed to doing his best to work
with a team to implement the existing statutory and regulatory
direction, without superimposing any personal biases, and to do
that to the best of his ability. Mr. Baker said he thought a
lot of the priorities are established in statute, in terms of
when a population is suppressed enough to preclude nonresident
use, resident nonlocal use, local use, or nonsubsistence or
subsistence. He said he thought that was all well laid out in
the statutory direction, so he didn't have any problem with
working with other board members and under the advice of the
AG's [attorney general's] office, in board deliberations on game
management on a GMU basis, to try to make the best decisions
possible regarding those priorities.
Number 0527
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Baker if he would favor
curtailing hunting over predator control, if the yield had been
reduced in a GMU area.
MR. BAKER, in response, said predator control is a controversial
and difficult issue. He said his experience with any kind of a
problem like that is if it can be broken down into most
manageable pieces, it becomes easier to deal with, and
fortunately, most of the proposals that come before the Board of
Game on predator reduction come in a GMU or sub-unit basis, not
on a statewide or regional basis. He said that's fortunate
because the population following can be looked at to make the
determinations needed: dynamics of the predator and prey;
habitat conditions; the level of public use; economic need that
local hunters are faced with; and area-specific considerations.
He said a lot of times predator control might be accompanied by
a reduction in season and bag limits; if the ungulate prey
population is that stressed, maybe "you need to reach for a
combination of tools in the toolbox." Mr. Baker said he
wouldn't want to try to prejudge or make a general sweeping
statement for all of Interior Alaska; he would rather
participate in focused board discussions on the circumstances
surrounding each GMU.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said there are a lot of people who feel
that the subsistence problem could be relieved considerably if
large losses due to predators were taken out to allow more of
the prey to be available. He suggested in this scenario, there
wouldn't be an rural/urban divide.
Number 0736
MR. BAKER said he believed in predator control on a case-by-case
basis.
CO-CHAIR MASEK asked Mr. Baker how he felt about motorized
access for hunting.
MR. BAKER said he is supportive of motorized access for the
purpose of hunting. He said during the Fairbanks board meeting
in March, the board looked for opportunities to allow people in
a local area to exercise some local control over excessively
high predator populations. He said the board did that in a
number of ways by relaxing seasons and bag limits, and by
recognizing the legitimacy of having legal snow machine access,
for example, to wolf populations in wolf-control areas. He said
he thought his and the board's record supported the notion that
they were responsive to the need to identify access.
CO-CHAIR MASEK mentioned the Board of Game's proposal that had
to do with ATV [all-terrain vehicle] access on the Kenai River.
MR. BAKER said he wasn't on the board at that time and didn't
know the specifics. He talked about access questions that the
board was faced with at the Fairbanks meeting in March, such as
snow machine access to wolf populations that were excessively
high, or allowing riverboat use for access, for hunting in areas
where there was no demonstrated biological impact that was
significantly negative or negative at all, or where there was no
tremendous inequity between user groups, and he said the
legitimacy for use of airboats was recognized. He said he
thought his own voting record and that of the board were
consistent with the notion of providing access, unless there was
a good, defensible reason for not doing so.
Number 0932
REPRESENTATIVE FATE suggested the take for human harvest is
somewhere between 3 and 5 percent. He asked Mr. Baker if he
would work actively to increase the human harvest, or if he
thought that was the level it should stay.
MR. BAKER said he tends to think more in terms of GMU-specific
circumstances. For example, he said, in the McGrath area in
Unit 19, there has been a lot of discussion about prey, wolf,
and black bear population levels. He mentioned that there had
been a historic high population of moose in that unit of about
6,000 to 7,000 animals. He said the Board of Game established a
management objective of 3,500 animals, and ADF&G's estimates of
the moose population in the last year or so have gone from 1,800
to 1,200. However, he said, the 1,200 figure was taken last
fall, and [ADF&G] is not accustomed to doing fall censuses and
had indicated that the conditions were not great. He said ADF&G
suggested that maybe 1,800 is a more accurate figure, and the
department is anxious to see the results from this year. He
said if he can begin to work with numbers like that with other
board members in a particular GMU, then it becomes easier to try
to say what population and harvest objective need to be
established in regulation, for that species in that unit, "which
we do, of course, in regulation as required by an existing law."
MR. BAKER, in response to Representative Fate's question about
increasing the human harvest, said he is assuming that the
demand is there, and if it is there and the biology for the prey
population can support it, sure.
REPRESENTATIVE FATE asked Mr. Baker, if predator consumption
were 84 percent and human consumption were 6 percent, whether he
would increase the human consumption or keep it at that level.
MR. BAKER said in that case, it sounds as though one might want
to reduce the predator population so that human consumption can
be increased.
Number 1207
MICHELLE SPARCK, Appointee to the Board of Game, testified. Ms.
Sparck explained that she was born in Anchorage and raised
between Bethel and Chevak. She talked about attending school in
Bethel and returning to Alaska in 1997, upon completion of her
postsecondary education, which [she attended] in Washington,
D.C., where she was close to her father's side of the family and
able to spend time developing her skills for a profession in
advocacy. She said the employment choices she has made in her
life have always been with the full intent to return and remain
a human resource to Alaska, particularly to her home region.
She explained that these circumstances enabled her to gain a
considerable understanding of what resource management on public
land and water involves.
MS. SPARCK mentioned having come from a state where an enormous
majority of land is held in government trusts; her own backyard,
the Yukon-Kuskokwim Delta National Wildlife Refuge, encompasses
[an area that is the size of] Washington [State]. She suggested
it is important to know how the regulatory process affects the
daily lives of user groups. She said in regard to how things
work in the state and with state resource management, she'd
grown up in this arena and has been actively working in it since
she was out of high school. Ms. Sparck said from this
experience, she knows how hard the work is to commit the time
and effort to an issue, and especially to see it through. She
explained that is why she takes public participation and the
process so seriously.
MS. SPARCK said she realizes how difficult it was for the public
to anticipate how she would conduct herself as a board member,
with her appointment having come shortly before the March
meeting in Fairbanks, but it is her sincere hope that the public
has since been assured that she takes its concern and proposals
[seriously], and that she is open to ideas, cooperation, and
compromise in the best interest of the resource and the user
groups. She said from the village, town, city, and regional
levels to the statewide level, she appreciates what information
is presented to her, from the ground up, on how to formulate a
decision.
MS. SPARCK said she recognized the critical responsibility that
comes with being a board member, where her vote can affect an
outcome, and she doesn't take it lightly that these votes can
benefit or hurt a person's livelihood or recreational
activities. She said [Alaskans] live in an remarkable state
with extraordinary resources and a vastly diverse user group,
and she doesn't take that for granted. She remarked, "But
knowing the user groups, they certainly wouldn't let me get away
with it anyway."
Number 1423
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER said she is tempted to declare a conflict
because she and Ms. Sparck were classmates, and she'd known Ms.
Sparck almost her whole life. She said she is enthusiastic
about Ms. Sparck's nomination to the Board of Game, and that Ms.
Sparck neglected to mention that she was always very actively
involved in student government, and was president of the Alaska
Association of Student Government. She mentioned that Ms.
Sparck and her sisters had worked for all of the members of
[Alaska's] congressional delegation. She explained that Ms.
Sparck's parents were strong advocates for the region, and her
father was one of the most revered leaders that [the region] has
had in recent history. She said Ms. Sparck's mother is a
professor at the university, and the family is very deep-
thinking and committed. She remarked, "And I think [Ms.
Sparck] is just one of the brightest stars we have in our region
...." Representative Kapsner thanked Ms. Sparck for all the
work that she's done in Washington, D.C., over the years.
Number 1565
CO-CHAIR MASEK asked Ms. Sparck how long she lived outside of
the state.
MS. SPARCK said she received her postsecondary education in
Washington, D.C., and had worked for U.S. Senator Ted Stevens
and Congressman Don Young for two years.
Number 1632
ROSE ATUK-FOSDICK testified. Ms. Atuk-Fosdick asked the
committee to confirm the appointment of Mr. Pungowiyi and Ms.
Sparck to the Board of Game. She said Mr. Pungowiyi and Ms.
Sparck have a unique capability that she very much respected.
She said they both have lifelong experience in traditional
methods of hunting, gathering, and in "putting away" animals,
plants, and birds as subsistence resources. She said Mr.
Pungowiyi and Ms. Sparck have experience and understand the
procedures and [the process of] making changes in regulations
that affect and oversee the management of fish and game. Ms.
Atuk-Fosdick said Mr. Pungowiyi had experience in Tier II issues
because musk ox hunting is an issue on the Seward Peninsula.
Number 1723
LORETTA BULLARD, President, Kawerak Incorporated ("Kawerak"),
testified. Ms. Bullard said Kawerak's board is in full support
of confirmation of both Mr. Pungowiyi and Ms. Sparck to the
Board of Game. She said she had the privilege of working for
Mr. Pungowiyi for four years, when he served as president of
Kawerak from 1985 to 1989, and more recently when he came back
to work as the director of Kawerak's [Natural Resource Program].
She said Mr. Pungowiyi did an excellent job in both capacities,
and is smart and familiar with the resource and the legal
issues. She said he is diplomatic and certainly a team player,
and she suggested that Mr. Pungowiyi's employment history
reflects people's knowledge of his skills and his demand within
the statewide community for his services. She said it is
believed that both Mr. Pungowiyi and Ms. Sparck would be
outstanding members of the Board of Game, and she urged the
committee to support their confirmations.
Number 1788
CO-CHAIR MASEK, upon determining no one else wished to testify,
closed public testimony.
[The motions to advance the confirmations to the Board of Game
were made following the hearings on HB 529 and HB 527.]
HB 529-PERMIT EXEMPTION FOR MUNITIONS USE
CO-CHAIR MASEK returned attention to HOUSE BILL NO. 529, "An Act
exempting the use of munitions in certain areas from a waste
disposal permit requirement of the Department of Environmental
Conservation."
Number 1820
RYNNIEVA MOSS, Staff to Representative John Coghill, Alaska
State Legislature, testified again on behalf of the House State
Affairs Standing Committee, sponsor, which Representative
Coghill chairs. She turned attention to Title 46, and she said
there are 61 pages of statutes that deal with water-air entity
and environmental conservation laws, and another 43 pages that
deal with oil and hazardous substance laws. Ms. Moss said it
was mentioned during testimony that this bill is set to nullify
a lawsuit, which is not true. She said [the intention of the
bill] is to clarify what the law intended, so that a judge
making a decision in this case does not have to guess what the
law is, and to make all parties aware of past, present, and
future practices by the Department of Natural Resources [DNR]
with regard to wastewater disposal permits.
Number 1887
REPRESENTATIVE McGUIRE mentioned that she and Representative
Green had cosponsored a bill that prohibited a trail from going
through a refuge in [the Anchorage] area. She expressed concern
about being consistent, and she suggested that [the bill] seemed
really broad and covered a lot of protections. She asked Ms.
Moss if she felt comfortable in exempting the military from all
of the provisions.
MS. MOSS explained that this bill only exempts the military from
[AS 46.03.100], which is a wastewater disposal permit. She said
in his testimony, Mr. Tom Chapple, Director, Division of Air and
Water Quality, Department of Environmental Conservation, was
very quick to point out that DEC has never required, nor does it
intend to require, a permit for current activities on active
military firing and training ranges. She said that was the
understanding of the law in the past, but this lawsuit has
brought up the fact that the law is not clear, and this [bill]
is an attempt to clarify that law.
REPRESENTATIVE McGUIRE asked if DEC was in support of this
legislation.
MS. MOSS said yes.
Number 1974
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked Ms. Moss if there was currently an
injunction [against the military with regard to training or
firing munitions on the Eagle River Flats].
MS. MOSS said no.
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA asked Ms. Moss if she knew of any other
states that exempt the military from getting permits.
MS. MOSS directed the question to DEC or the military. She said
the only reason this legislation was brought forth is because
the lawsuit has brought out that a state statute is unclear.
She suggested it is already known that the federal laws are
unclear, and Congress is dealing with that issue, but this
[bill] deals with the [second count] of the lawsuit.
CO-CHAIR MASEK offered her belief that there had been some
really good debate on the bill and that a lot of issues had been
clarified. She said this bill is pretty simple in nature and
that she didn't believe it would have an impact on the state.
Number 2062
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN moved to report CSHB 529 [version 22-
LS1752\C, Lauterbach, 5/3/02] out of committee with individual
recommendations and the accompanying zero fiscal notes.
Number 2079
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA objected. She explained that [she
believed] DEC had been very clear about its practice and that
would be the testimony to the court. She referred to the court
action, and she said there is no injunction, so the committee is
not changing anything about the way that the military can
currently act. Representative Kerttula said she didn't feel
comfortable with what might happen in terms of the court case,
if this bill is passed.
Number 2126
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN noted the earlier questioning about lead
and the problems that could be associated with that, and he said
that is not the [issue]. He suggested the lead is probably
lead-shot from hunters and is ingested by waterfowl, which
[migrate to Alaska] and either die or are eaten. He said he
thought the issue being discussed was live rounds of explosive
ammunition, which is not lead.
Number 2160
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER noted that she is also concerned with the
white phosphorus that is evident, and she suggested that the
effects of white phosphorus on waterfowl and people, including
the people who eat the waterfowl, are [unknown].
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN mentioned that the [Army] had testified
that [the use of white phosphorus] was stopped over 10 years
ago, and that the Army had been mediating [that issue].
CO-CHAIR MASEK noted that [live firing of munitions by the Army]
takes place when the ground is frozen, and she suggested that
nothing goes into the ground.
Number 2203
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA withdrew her objection.
Number 2244
CO-CHAIR MASEK announced that [CSHB 529(RES)] was moved out of
the House Resources Standing Committee.
The committee took an at-ease from 3:20 p.m. to 3:21 p.m.
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA noted that hadn't realized the committee
was moving the CS [since she'd been absent at the beginning of
the meeting], and that there was a distinct difference between
it and the original bill. She said the CS had been broadened to
[include] all active ranges, and that [difference] clearly would
have involved lead. [CSHB 529(RES) was moved out of committee.]
HB 527-MINTO FLATS GAME REFUGE
CO-CHAIR MASEK returned attention to HOUSE BILL NO. 527, "An Act
relating to entry into the Minto Flats State Game Refuge for
purposes of exploration and development of oil and gas
resources."
Number 2307
REPRESENTATIVE FATE moved to report HB 527 out of committee with
individual recommendations and the accompanying zero fiscal
notes. There being no objection, HB 527 was reported from the
House Resources Standing Committee.
CONFIRMATION HEARINGS
Board of Game
CO-CHAIR MASEK returned the committee's attention to the
confirmation hearings on the appointments of J. Dana Pruhs,
George Matz, Caleb Pungowiyi, Bruce H. Baker, and Michelle R.
Sparck to the Board of Game.
Number 2377
REPRESENTATIVE FATE made a motion to move the nomination of J.
Dana Pruhs to the Board of Game forward to the full bodies for
consideration. There being no objection, the confirmation of J.
Dana Pruhs was advanced from the House Resources Standing
Committee.
Number 2397
REPRESENTATIVE McGUIRE made a motion to move the nomination of
George Matz to the Board of Game forward to the full bodies for
consideration. There being no objection, the confirmation of
George Matz was advanced from the House Resources Standing
Committee.
Number 2420
REPRESENTATIVE FATE made a motion to move the nomination of
Caleb Pungowiyi to the Board of Game forward to the full bodies
for consideration. There being no objection, the confirmation
of Caleb Pungowiyi was advanced from the House Resources
Standing Committee.
Number 2429
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER made a motion to move the nomination of
Michelle R. Sparck to the Board of Game forward to the full
bodies for consideration. There being no objection, the
confirmation of Michelle R. Sparck was advanced from the House
Resources Standing Committee.
Number 2458
REPRESENTATIVE KERTTULA made a motion to move the nomination of
Bruce H. Baker to the Board of Game forward to the full bodies
for consideration. There being no objection, the confirmation
of Bruce H. Baker was advanced from the House Resources Standing
Committee.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business before the committee, the House
Resources Standing Committee meeting was adjourned at 3:25 p.m.
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